Can you use Vicious Mockery to win an argument or gain favours?Can a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Can an Eldritch Knight use the bonus-action attack granted by War Magic before casting the spell as an action?Does Psychic Crush cause stunning on a successful save also?Is Ego Whip a charm-based attack?Vicious Mockery on non-humanoid targets?Is this modification of the Vicious Mockery cantrip overpowered?Potent Cantrip with Toll the Dead vs EvasionCan a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Does this cantrip have a fair risk/reward balance?Does the Fear spell work with an Oath of Conquest paladin's Aura of Conquest?Is there any way to damage Intellect Devourer(s) when already within a creature's skull?

Can you use Vicious Mockery to win an argument or gain favours?

Pre-mixing cryogenic fuels and using only one fuel tank

How can ping know if my host is down

Inherit child template to the parent template using Powershell

Does the reader need to like the PoV character?

Why do ¬, ∀ and ∃ have the same precedence?

How to explain what's wrong with this application of the chain rule?

What (the heck) is a Super Worm Equinox Moon?

Is this part of the description of the Archfey warlock's Misty Escape feature redundant?

Microchip documentation does not label CAN buss pins on micro controller pinout diagram

Why should universal income be universal?

Why is the Sun approximated as a black body at ~ 5800 K?

Make a Bowl of Alphabet Soup

How to draw a matrix with arrows in limited space

How much theory knowledge is actually used while playing?

In movies, why do people move so slowly in zero gravity?

Why does Carol not get rid of the Kree symbol on her suit when she changes its colours?

A Trivial Diagnosis

What is the English pronunciation of "pain au chocolat"?

Has any country ever had 2 former presidents in jail simultaneously?

Has the laser at Magurele, Romania reached a tenth of the Sun's power?

Do we have to expect a queue for the shuttle from Watford Junction to Harry Potter Studio?

The IT department bottlenecks progress, how should I handle this?

How do I fix the group tension caused by my character stealing and possibly killing without provocation?



Can you use Vicious Mockery to win an argument or gain favours?


Can a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Can an Eldritch Knight use the bonus-action attack granted by War Magic before casting the spell as an action?Does Psychic Crush cause stunning on a successful save also?Is Ego Whip a charm-based attack?Vicious Mockery on non-humanoid targets?Is this modification of the Vicious Mockery cantrip overpowered?Potent Cantrip with Toll the Dead vs EvasionCan a bard cast Vicious Mockery without passersby thinking it's an attack?Does this cantrip have a fair risk/reward balance?Does the Fear spell work with an Oath of Conquest paladin's Aura of Conquest?Is there any way to damage Intellect Devourer(s) when already within a creature's skull?













3












$begingroup$


Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.



As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:




You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take
1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack
roll it makes before the end of its next turn.



This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).




Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.



Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.



If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?



Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?



Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Barden
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago















3












$begingroup$


Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.



As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:




You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take
1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack
roll it makes before the end of its next turn.



This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).




Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.



Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.



If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?



Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?



Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Barden
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago













3












3








3





$begingroup$


Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.



As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:




You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take
1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack
roll it makes before the end of its next turn.



This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).




Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.



Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.



If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?



Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?



Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Though I know that RAW states that Vicious Mockery is initiated through a "string of insults", my question is about what would happen if you used it elsewhere than a tavern brawl or the like.



As a reference, the cantrip Vicious Mockery is written as:




You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you
(though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom
saving throw or take
1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on
the next attack
roll it makes before the end of its next turn.



This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4),
11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).




Unlike similar opinion-effecting spells like Friends and Charm Person, the wording of this spell doesn't finish with a caveat "when the spell ends, they will know you influenced them and it will piss them off", revealing that, it's the insults and not the subtle enchantments that will upset them.



Given this, my understanding of how the cantrip works is that you insult someone, using magical enchantments to boost the persuasiveness of your words. If they fail a wisdom saving throw, they take your words to heart, shading their next move with a veil of sadness, doubt, or fear clouding their judgment. As your words sting, they take minute psychic damage.



If that's the case then, I'm curious to know what would happen if your character tried lacing the same subtle enchantments while attempting other feats of persuasion?



Would your words of endearment seem more authentic when using it to court a potential partner? Would your opinion seem more valid when using it to settle an argument? Would the opinion someone has of you become more likable when trying to dispel doubt in an argument? ... Or will everything sound like an insult?



Though I realize that this does not guarantee the character's desired outcome and the added effects can be negated if they succeed a wisdom saving throw, I'm wondering if it would be a way for a character to increase their chance for a favorable outcome without the other person feeling swindled or used in the end...







dnd-5e spells social-combat






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









V2Blast

25.2k483156




25.2k483156










asked 2 hours ago









Victor BVictor B

1,109222




1,109222











  • $begingroup$
    For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Barden
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago
















  • $begingroup$
    For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Barden
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago















$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
For those curious, my understanding was based on the fact that the spell sounds like the bullying remarks to a depressed person. I didn't realize that psychic damage was actually fatal here.
$endgroup$
– Victor B
1 hour ago




1




1




$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
you may find rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/134159/… interesting, as it approaches the uniqueness of this particular spell from a somewhat different direction.
$endgroup$
– Ben Barden
1 hour ago












$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
@BenBarden I did read it before posting. Though I see the link, it's still focusing on the vicious part and I was curious about the "lace with enchantment" part. Again, I mistook psychic damage to be "mental trauma"
$endgroup$
– Victor B
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















14












$begingroup$

Not in the way you want it to.



Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.



Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.



However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago


















1












$begingroup$

No, Vicious Mockery is not a charm



While vicious mockery is a spell from the school of Enchantment, none of it's capabilities include charm effects or the charmed condition.



The spell itself is not an opinion-effecting spell - it is a damage and debuff spell. You can see this in the tags on dndbeyond and note that it does not carry the social tag.



Mechanically, the spell only does what it says, which is:




You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.




These effects are not subtle. You have cast a spell, dealt psychic damage, and done something to make it more difficult for them to succeed on their next attack.



A possible way forward



This doesn't mean that a DM could let you use it in this way, but just that the general mechanics for it don't include it. If you did use this, and the target didn't fully engage in combat back, you may be able to pair it with a more social skill of intimidation, but that is going to be entirely up to the DM and wouldn't be that difference than threatening someone in general after hitting them with a melee or ranged attack.



Narrating effects



It's also important to consider the narration process. This is a highly personal piece, but I generally approach by narrating to support the mechanical effects. Narrating as a means of explaining may introduce more confusion than necessary and create misunderstandings of what a spell can do. Some caster classes, like the Bard, are limited in what spells they know. Stretching spell capabilities beyond that minimizes that limitation - but if that matters is highly table dependent.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












    Your Answer





    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
    );
    );
    , "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "122"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143655%2fcan-you-use-vicious-mockery-to-win-an-argument-or-gain-favours%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    14












    $begingroup$

    Not in the way you want it to.



    Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.



    Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.



    However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago















    14












    $begingroup$

    Not in the way you want it to.



    Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.



    Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.



    However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago













    14












    14








    14





    $begingroup$

    Not in the way you want it to.



    Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.



    Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.



    However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Not in the way you want it to.



    Vicious Mockery isn't just "influence them to be a bit demoralized". If you continue to viciously mock someone, you can literally kill them. It's not so much making your words extra-persuasive as it is using those words as a channel to assault their mind. Worth noting that Vicious Mockery outright requires line of sight. If you can't see the target, you can't affect them with the spell. At the same time, it doesn't require that they be able to understand you - just that they be able to hear you.



    Further, and more specifically, in 5e, spells do what they say they do. This one tells you what it does. It inflicts psychic damage. It doesn't do things like persuading or flattering. That's not doing psychic damage, and therefore not what the spell does.



    However, at least technically, yes, you can use Vicious Mockery to win arguments or gain favors. If you meet some ruffian accosting a helpless NPC, and engage them in impassioned debate, then you could use Vicious Mockery to deal psychic damage as you inform them of details of their parentage about which they were previously unaware. If they should happen to yield the floor to you and flee (perhaps because they did not wish to die from psychic damage) then you will have won that argument by default... and the poor innocent NPC in question (ears burning) might well feel that they owed you a favor or two.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 1 hour ago

























    answered 1 hour ago









    Ben BardenBen Barden

    11.2k12765




    11.2k12765











    • $begingroup$
      Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago
















    • $begingroup$
      Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago










    • $begingroup$
      @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
      $endgroup$
      – Victor B
      1 hour ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
      $endgroup$
      – Zibbobz
      1 hour ago















    $begingroup$
    Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    Ah, that sounds violently intrusive. I guess I misunderstood the spell.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago












    $begingroup$
    @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    @VictorB Well it isn't called "Pleasant" Mockery now, is it?
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago












    $begingroup$
    @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    @Zibbobz no, but the spell sounds like the effects a depressed victim goes through when being bullied, though those words can't directly kill.
    $endgroup$
    – Victor B
    1 hour ago




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago




    $begingroup$
    @VictorB Nope - It can definitely kill. You can, in fact, mock someone to death in 5e.
    $endgroup$
    – Zibbobz
    1 hour ago













    1












    $begingroup$

    No, Vicious Mockery is not a charm



    While vicious mockery is a spell from the school of Enchantment, none of it's capabilities include charm effects or the charmed condition.



    The spell itself is not an opinion-effecting spell - it is a damage and debuff spell. You can see this in the tags on dndbeyond and note that it does not carry the social tag.



    Mechanically, the spell only does what it says, which is:




    You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.




    These effects are not subtle. You have cast a spell, dealt psychic damage, and done something to make it more difficult for them to succeed on their next attack.



    A possible way forward



    This doesn't mean that a DM could let you use it in this way, but just that the general mechanics for it don't include it. If you did use this, and the target didn't fully engage in combat back, you may be able to pair it with a more social skill of intimidation, but that is going to be entirely up to the DM and wouldn't be that difference than threatening someone in general after hitting them with a melee or ranged attack.



    Narrating effects



    It's also important to consider the narration process. This is a highly personal piece, but I generally approach by narrating to support the mechanical effects. Narrating as a means of explaining may introduce more confusion than necessary and create misunderstandings of what a spell can do. Some caster classes, like the Bard, are limited in what spells they know. Stretching spell capabilities beyond that minimizes that limitation - but if that matters is highly table dependent.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      1












      $begingroup$

      No, Vicious Mockery is not a charm



      While vicious mockery is a spell from the school of Enchantment, none of it's capabilities include charm effects or the charmed condition.



      The spell itself is not an opinion-effecting spell - it is a damage and debuff spell. You can see this in the tags on dndbeyond and note that it does not carry the social tag.



      Mechanically, the spell only does what it says, which is:




      You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.




      These effects are not subtle. You have cast a spell, dealt psychic damage, and done something to make it more difficult for them to succeed on their next attack.



      A possible way forward



      This doesn't mean that a DM could let you use it in this way, but just that the general mechanics for it don't include it. If you did use this, and the target didn't fully engage in combat back, you may be able to pair it with a more social skill of intimidation, but that is going to be entirely up to the DM and wouldn't be that difference than threatening someone in general after hitting them with a melee or ranged attack.



      Narrating effects



      It's also important to consider the narration process. This is a highly personal piece, but I generally approach by narrating to support the mechanical effects. Narrating as a means of explaining may introduce more confusion than necessary and create misunderstandings of what a spell can do. Some caster classes, like the Bard, are limited in what spells they know. Stretching spell capabilities beyond that minimizes that limitation - but if that matters is highly table dependent.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        1












        1








        1





        $begingroup$

        No, Vicious Mockery is not a charm



        While vicious mockery is a spell from the school of Enchantment, none of it's capabilities include charm effects or the charmed condition.



        The spell itself is not an opinion-effecting spell - it is a damage and debuff spell. You can see this in the tags on dndbeyond and note that it does not carry the social tag.



        Mechanically, the spell only does what it says, which is:




        You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.




        These effects are not subtle. You have cast a spell, dealt psychic damage, and done something to make it more difficult for them to succeed on their next attack.



        A possible way forward



        This doesn't mean that a DM could let you use it in this way, but just that the general mechanics for it don't include it. If you did use this, and the target didn't fully engage in combat back, you may be able to pair it with a more social skill of intimidation, but that is going to be entirely up to the DM and wouldn't be that difference than threatening someone in general after hitting them with a melee or ranged attack.



        Narrating effects



        It's also important to consider the narration process. This is a highly personal piece, but I generally approach by narrating to support the mechanical effects. Narrating as a means of explaining may introduce more confusion than necessary and create misunderstandings of what a spell can do. Some caster classes, like the Bard, are limited in what spells they know. Stretching spell capabilities beyond that minimizes that limitation - but if that matters is highly table dependent.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        No, Vicious Mockery is not a charm



        While vicious mockery is a spell from the school of Enchantment, none of it's capabilities include charm effects or the charmed condition.



        The spell itself is not an opinion-effecting spell - it is a damage and debuff spell. You can see this in the tags on dndbeyond and note that it does not carry the social tag.



        Mechanically, the spell only does what it says, which is:




        You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.




        These effects are not subtle. You have cast a spell, dealt psychic damage, and done something to make it more difficult for them to succeed on their next attack.



        A possible way forward



        This doesn't mean that a DM could let you use it in this way, but just that the general mechanics for it don't include it. If you did use this, and the target didn't fully engage in combat back, you may be able to pair it with a more social skill of intimidation, but that is going to be entirely up to the DM and wouldn't be that difference than threatening someone in general after hitting them with a melee or ranged attack.



        Narrating effects



        It's also important to consider the narration process. This is a highly personal piece, but I generally approach by narrating to support the mechanical effects. Narrating as a means of explaining may introduce more confusion than necessary and create misunderstandings of what a spell can do. Some caster classes, like the Bard, are limited in what spells they know. Stretching spell capabilities beyond that minimizes that limitation - but if that matters is highly table dependent.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 4 mins ago

























        answered 12 mins ago









        NautArchNautArch

        60.5k8217402




        60.5k8217402



























            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Role-playing Games Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143655%2fcan-you-use-vicious-mockery-to-win-an-argument-or-gain-favours%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Best approach to update all entries in a list that is paginated?Best way to add items to a paginated listChoose Your Country: Best Usability approachUpdate list when a user is viewing the list without annoying themWhen would the best day to update your webpage be?What should happen when I add a Row to a paginated, sorted listShould I adopt infinite scrolling or classical pagination?How to show user that page objects automatically updateWhat is the best location to locate the comments section in a list pageBest way to combine filtering and selecting items in a listWhen one of two inputs must be updated to satisfy a consistency criteria, which should you update (if at all)?

            Вунгтау (аеропорт) Загальні відомості | Див. також | Посилання | Навігаційне меню10°22′00″ пн. ш. 107°05′00″ сх. д. / 10.36667° пн. ш. 107.08333° сх. д. / 10.36667; 107.0833310°22′00″ пн. ш. 107°05′00″ сх. д. / 10.36667° пн. ш. 107.08333° сх. д. / 10.36667; 107.083337731608Vinh AirportVinh airport facelift improves serviceвиправивши або дописавши їївиправивши або дописавши їїр

            Тонконіг бульбистий Зміст Опис | Поширення | Екологія | Господарське значення | Примітки | Див. також | Література | Джерела | Посилання | Навігаційне меню1114601320038-241116202404kew-435458Poa bulbosaЭлектронный каталог сосудистых растений Азиатской России [Електронний каталог судинних рослин Азіатської Росії]Малышев Л. Л. Дикие родичи культурных растений. Poa bulbosa L. - Мятлик луковичный. [Малишев Л. Л. Дикі родичи культурних рослин. Poa bulbosa L. - Тонконіг бульбистий.]Мятлик (POA) Сем. Злаки (Мятликовые) [Тонконіг (POA) Род. Злаки (Тонконогові)]Poa bulbosa Linnaeus, Sp. Pl. 1: 70. 1753. 鳞茎早熟禾 lin jing zao shu he (Description from Flora of China) [Poa bulbosa Linnaeus, Sp. Pl. 1: 70. 1753. 鳞茎早熟禾 lin jing zao shu he (Опис від Флора Китаю)]Poa bulbosa L. – lipnice cibulkatá / lipnica cibulkatáPoa bulbosa в базі даних Poa bulbosa на сайті Poa bulbosa в базі даних «Global Biodiversity Information Facility» (GBIF)Poa bulbosa в базі даних «Euro + Med PlantBase» — інформаційному ресурсі для Євро-середземноморського розмаїття рослинPoa bulbosa L. на сайті «Плантариум»