Biological Blimps: PropulsionPlausibility of Giant Floating WhalesA Bird that Never Touches GroundHigh-Altitude Life?How would lower gravity affect motion?Mermaid Buoyancy: Oily Livers, Swim Bladders and LungsPurpose of Engineered Organic Flying WhalesIs there a reason a flying species can't use lighter than air gas to help provide lift?Alternative flightWhat kind of wing design would a quadruped with six wings need to fly well?Would this biological cooling system work?Superheated wing blast!

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Biological Blimps: Propulsion


Plausibility of Giant Floating WhalesA Bird that Never Touches GroundHigh-Altitude Life?How would lower gravity affect motion?Mermaid Buoyancy: Oily Livers, Swim Bladders and LungsPurpose of Engineered Organic Flying WhalesIs there a reason a flying species can't use lighter than air gas to help provide lift?Alternative flightWhat kind of wing design would a quadruped with six wings need to fly well?Would this biological cooling system work?Superheated wing blast!













7












$begingroup$


A while back, I asked this question about the plausibility of giant floating whales and received an excellent and high-scoring answer from Dubukay demonstrating the unfeasibility of the idea. However, more recently I discovered some flawed assumption in the answer and wrote my own answer, demonstrating that, if we assumed a more reasonable gasbag skin thickness than Dubukay had, the idea became much more plausible. In my answer, I calculated that a creature with a mass of 500 kg (not counting the mass of the hydrogen) needed just over 400 kg for its gasbag. This leaves us with 100 kg for everything else.



Now, this flying gasbag will have to do more than just float around to survive. To find food, it will probably have to have some way to move around in the air. Blimps typically use propellers to do this, but propellers are unlikely to be viable for a biological creature for a variety of reasons. Aquatic creatures typically use some kind of flipper to move through the water, but because of the low density of air, the flippers would probably have to be impractically large. So the question is, what would be the best propulsion system for this type of flying creature?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
    $endgroup$
    – jean
    13 mins ago















7












$begingroup$


A while back, I asked this question about the plausibility of giant floating whales and received an excellent and high-scoring answer from Dubukay demonstrating the unfeasibility of the idea. However, more recently I discovered some flawed assumption in the answer and wrote my own answer, demonstrating that, if we assumed a more reasonable gasbag skin thickness than Dubukay had, the idea became much more plausible. In my answer, I calculated that a creature with a mass of 500 kg (not counting the mass of the hydrogen) needed just over 400 kg for its gasbag. This leaves us with 100 kg for everything else.



Now, this flying gasbag will have to do more than just float around to survive. To find food, it will probably have to have some way to move around in the air. Blimps typically use propellers to do this, but propellers are unlikely to be viable for a biological creature for a variety of reasons. Aquatic creatures typically use some kind of flipper to move through the water, but because of the low density of air, the flippers would probably have to be impractically large. So the question is, what would be the best propulsion system for this type of flying creature?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
    $endgroup$
    – jean
    13 mins ago













7












7








7





$begingroup$


A while back, I asked this question about the plausibility of giant floating whales and received an excellent and high-scoring answer from Dubukay demonstrating the unfeasibility of the idea. However, more recently I discovered some flawed assumption in the answer and wrote my own answer, demonstrating that, if we assumed a more reasonable gasbag skin thickness than Dubukay had, the idea became much more plausible. In my answer, I calculated that a creature with a mass of 500 kg (not counting the mass of the hydrogen) needed just over 400 kg for its gasbag. This leaves us with 100 kg for everything else.



Now, this flying gasbag will have to do more than just float around to survive. To find food, it will probably have to have some way to move around in the air. Blimps typically use propellers to do this, but propellers are unlikely to be viable for a biological creature for a variety of reasons. Aquatic creatures typically use some kind of flipper to move through the water, but because of the low density of air, the flippers would probably have to be impractically large. So the question is, what would be the best propulsion system for this type of flying creature?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




A while back, I asked this question about the plausibility of giant floating whales and received an excellent and high-scoring answer from Dubukay demonstrating the unfeasibility of the idea. However, more recently I discovered some flawed assumption in the answer and wrote my own answer, demonstrating that, if we assumed a more reasonable gasbag skin thickness than Dubukay had, the idea became much more plausible. In my answer, I calculated that a creature with a mass of 500 kg (not counting the mass of the hydrogen) needed just over 400 kg for its gasbag. This leaves us with 100 kg for everything else.



Now, this flying gasbag will have to do more than just float around to survive. To find food, it will probably have to have some way to move around in the air. Blimps typically use propellers to do this, but propellers are unlikely to be viable for a biological creature for a variety of reasons. Aquatic creatures typically use some kind of flipper to move through the water, but because of the low density of air, the flippers would probably have to be impractically large. So the question is, what would be the best propulsion system for this type of flying creature?







science-based biology creature-design flight






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 3 hours ago









GryphonGryphon

4,27323269




4,27323269











  • $begingroup$
    express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
    $endgroup$
    – jean
    13 mins ago
















  • $begingroup$
    express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
    $endgroup$
    – jean
    13 mins ago















$begingroup$
express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
$endgroup$
– jean
13 mins ago




$begingroup$
express.co.uk/news/science/686885/…
$endgroup$
– jean
13 mins ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3












$begingroup$

One alternative method of propulsion that could be considered is: Basically having none at all...



Consider a symbiotic system where your 'bio-blimps' are more 'giant floating green houses' - Main creature feeds off light algae/lichen like secondary lifeform, which the main creature effectively cultivates as a means to gather energy from the sun by funneling rain water to them.



Further input could come from birds who nest in/on the bio-blimp, depositing the left overs from meals they collect from elsewhere, which in turns feeds the secondary bio-mass.



Bio-blimp's survival is no longer tied to it being able to navigate toward food, as its food source naturally grows or comes to it, and it is free to drift on the winds while adjusting its lifting bladders to maintain a comfortable altitude.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    The same way a nautilus swims around in water: jet propulsion. Nautiluses move using a hyponome, which expands to pull in water from the sides of the nautilus, and contracts to expel a jet of water.



    The bio-blimps can majestically wheeze across the land using what is essentially an organic bellows, just like the nautilus. Whenever it wants to move, it expands a bladder to pull in air from broad vents on the side of its body, and then compresses the bladder to expel the air through a much smaller vent to propel itself.



    Presumably they already have various valves and sphincters and what not for maintaining their main gasbag, so adding one smaller gasbag for locomotion should a breeze.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
      $endgroup$
      – Kaloyan
      3 hours ago






    • 2




      $begingroup$
      @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
      $endgroup$
      – Giter
      2 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$

    For obvious reasons, wings are by far the best propulsion system as far as animals go.



    Since that seems to not be possible due to that whale's anatomy however, and since we've already excluded flippers, I can think of two possible means of locomotion :



    • Jet propulsion : Such as the one squids use underwater by quickly ejecting water out of a valve, allowing them to reach great speeds. However due to the low density of air, jet propulsion would likely be very weak in terms of acceleration unless unrealistic amounts of pressure are applied. If you are thinking of a slower type of animal though that would be an idea.


    • No locomotion at all ! Some animals simply travel by drifting, such as jellyfish. Of course in the air that is not really an option, since food would probably be scarce thus depriving you of the luxury to drift aimlessly just waiting for food to land into your mouth.


    In conclusion, the best option then would be a combination of both proposals, that is aerial whales that mainly navigate the wind currents by letting themselves drift along the currents, with the ability to (slightly) steer using jet propulsion. That way no enormous amounts of jet pressure would be needed, thus staying in the realm of plausibility.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












      Your Answer





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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      3












      $begingroup$

      One alternative method of propulsion that could be considered is: Basically having none at all...



      Consider a symbiotic system where your 'bio-blimps' are more 'giant floating green houses' - Main creature feeds off light algae/lichen like secondary lifeform, which the main creature effectively cultivates as a means to gather energy from the sun by funneling rain water to them.



      Further input could come from birds who nest in/on the bio-blimp, depositing the left overs from meals they collect from elsewhere, which in turns feeds the secondary bio-mass.



      Bio-blimp's survival is no longer tied to it being able to navigate toward food, as its food source naturally grows or comes to it, and it is free to drift on the winds while adjusting its lifting bladders to maintain a comfortable altitude.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        One alternative method of propulsion that could be considered is: Basically having none at all...



        Consider a symbiotic system where your 'bio-blimps' are more 'giant floating green houses' - Main creature feeds off light algae/lichen like secondary lifeform, which the main creature effectively cultivates as a means to gather energy from the sun by funneling rain water to them.



        Further input could come from birds who nest in/on the bio-blimp, depositing the left overs from meals they collect from elsewhere, which in turns feeds the secondary bio-mass.



        Bio-blimp's survival is no longer tied to it being able to navigate toward food, as its food source naturally grows or comes to it, and it is free to drift on the winds while adjusting its lifting bladders to maintain a comfortable altitude.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.






        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          One alternative method of propulsion that could be considered is: Basically having none at all...



          Consider a symbiotic system where your 'bio-blimps' are more 'giant floating green houses' - Main creature feeds off light algae/lichen like secondary lifeform, which the main creature effectively cultivates as a means to gather energy from the sun by funneling rain water to them.



          Further input could come from birds who nest in/on the bio-blimp, depositing the left overs from meals they collect from elsewhere, which in turns feeds the secondary bio-mass.



          Bio-blimp's survival is no longer tied to it being able to navigate toward food, as its food source naturally grows or comes to it, and it is free to drift on the winds while adjusting its lifting bladders to maintain a comfortable altitude.






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          $endgroup$



          One alternative method of propulsion that could be considered is: Basically having none at all...



          Consider a symbiotic system where your 'bio-blimps' are more 'giant floating green houses' - Main creature feeds off light algae/lichen like secondary lifeform, which the main creature effectively cultivates as a means to gather energy from the sun by funneling rain water to them.



          Further input could come from birds who nest in/on the bio-blimp, depositing the left overs from meals they collect from elsewhere, which in turns feeds the secondary bio-mass.



          Bio-blimp's survival is no longer tied to it being able to navigate toward food, as its food source naturally grows or comes to it, and it is free to drift on the winds while adjusting its lifting bladders to maintain a comfortable altitude.







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 3 hours ago









          TheLucklessTheLuckless

          1311




          1311




          New contributor




          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          TheLuckless is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





















              2












              $begingroup$

              The same way a nautilus swims around in water: jet propulsion. Nautiluses move using a hyponome, which expands to pull in water from the sides of the nautilus, and contracts to expel a jet of water.



              The bio-blimps can majestically wheeze across the land using what is essentially an organic bellows, just like the nautilus. Whenever it wants to move, it expands a bladder to pull in air from broad vents on the side of its body, and then compresses the bladder to expel the air through a much smaller vent to propel itself.



              Presumably they already have various valves and sphincters and what not for maintaining their main gasbag, so adding one smaller gasbag for locomotion should a breeze.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaloyan
                3 hours ago






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                2 hours ago
















              2












              $begingroup$

              The same way a nautilus swims around in water: jet propulsion. Nautiluses move using a hyponome, which expands to pull in water from the sides of the nautilus, and contracts to expel a jet of water.



              The bio-blimps can majestically wheeze across the land using what is essentially an organic bellows, just like the nautilus. Whenever it wants to move, it expands a bladder to pull in air from broad vents on the side of its body, and then compresses the bladder to expel the air through a much smaller vent to propel itself.



              Presumably they already have various valves and sphincters and what not for maintaining their main gasbag, so adding one smaller gasbag for locomotion should a breeze.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaloyan
                3 hours ago






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                2 hours ago














              2












              2








              2





              $begingroup$

              The same way a nautilus swims around in water: jet propulsion. Nautiluses move using a hyponome, which expands to pull in water from the sides of the nautilus, and contracts to expel a jet of water.



              The bio-blimps can majestically wheeze across the land using what is essentially an organic bellows, just like the nautilus. Whenever it wants to move, it expands a bladder to pull in air from broad vents on the side of its body, and then compresses the bladder to expel the air through a much smaller vent to propel itself.



              Presumably they already have various valves and sphincters and what not for maintaining their main gasbag, so adding one smaller gasbag for locomotion should a breeze.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              The same way a nautilus swims around in water: jet propulsion. Nautiluses move using a hyponome, which expands to pull in water from the sides of the nautilus, and contracts to expel a jet of water.



              The bio-blimps can majestically wheeze across the land using what is essentially an organic bellows, just like the nautilus. Whenever it wants to move, it expands a bladder to pull in air from broad vents on the side of its body, and then compresses the bladder to expel the air through a much smaller vent to propel itself.



              Presumably they already have various valves and sphincters and what not for maintaining their main gasbag, so adding one smaller gasbag for locomotion should a breeze.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 46 mins ago

























              answered 3 hours ago









              GiterGiter

              14.7k63543




              14.7k63543











              • $begingroup$
                I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaloyan
                3 hours ago






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                2 hours ago

















              • $begingroup$
                I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaloyan
                3 hours ago






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
                $endgroup$
                – Giter
                2 hours ago
















              $begingroup$
              I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
              $endgroup$
              – Kaloyan
              3 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              I had a similar idea, but seeing as air density is very low compared to that of water, you would need huge amounts of air expulsion pressure, so much so that I doubt a biological organism would be able to generate unlike one that lives in water.
              $endgroup$
              – Kaloyan
              3 hours ago




              2




              2




              $begingroup$
              @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
              $endgroup$
              – Giter
              2 hours ago





              $begingroup$
              @Kaloyan: Air density being much lower than water means that the air jet produces less thrust, but also the blimp has to overcome less drag. I'd assume any potential thrust/drag ratio is the same for air as it is for water, since in both cases the same fluids are producing the thrust and drag.
              $endgroup$
              – Giter
              2 hours ago












              1












              $begingroup$

              For obvious reasons, wings are by far the best propulsion system as far as animals go.



              Since that seems to not be possible due to that whale's anatomy however, and since we've already excluded flippers, I can think of two possible means of locomotion :



              • Jet propulsion : Such as the one squids use underwater by quickly ejecting water out of a valve, allowing them to reach great speeds. However due to the low density of air, jet propulsion would likely be very weak in terms of acceleration unless unrealistic amounts of pressure are applied. If you are thinking of a slower type of animal though that would be an idea.


              • No locomotion at all ! Some animals simply travel by drifting, such as jellyfish. Of course in the air that is not really an option, since food would probably be scarce thus depriving you of the luxury to drift aimlessly just waiting for food to land into your mouth.


              In conclusion, the best option then would be a combination of both proposals, that is aerial whales that mainly navigate the wind currents by letting themselves drift along the currents, with the ability to (slightly) steer using jet propulsion. That way no enormous amounts of jet pressure would be needed, thus staying in the realm of plausibility.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                For obvious reasons, wings are by far the best propulsion system as far as animals go.



                Since that seems to not be possible due to that whale's anatomy however, and since we've already excluded flippers, I can think of two possible means of locomotion :



                • Jet propulsion : Such as the one squids use underwater by quickly ejecting water out of a valve, allowing them to reach great speeds. However due to the low density of air, jet propulsion would likely be very weak in terms of acceleration unless unrealistic amounts of pressure are applied. If you are thinking of a slower type of animal though that would be an idea.


                • No locomotion at all ! Some animals simply travel by drifting, such as jellyfish. Of course in the air that is not really an option, since food would probably be scarce thus depriving you of the luxury to drift aimlessly just waiting for food to land into your mouth.


                In conclusion, the best option then would be a combination of both proposals, that is aerial whales that mainly navigate the wind currents by letting themselves drift along the currents, with the ability to (slightly) steer using jet propulsion. That way no enormous amounts of jet pressure would be needed, thus staying in the realm of plausibility.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  For obvious reasons, wings are by far the best propulsion system as far as animals go.



                  Since that seems to not be possible due to that whale's anatomy however, and since we've already excluded flippers, I can think of two possible means of locomotion :



                  • Jet propulsion : Such as the one squids use underwater by quickly ejecting water out of a valve, allowing them to reach great speeds. However due to the low density of air, jet propulsion would likely be very weak in terms of acceleration unless unrealistic amounts of pressure are applied. If you are thinking of a slower type of animal though that would be an idea.


                  • No locomotion at all ! Some animals simply travel by drifting, such as jellyfish. Of course in the air that is not really an option, since food would probably be scarce thus depriving you of the luxury to drift aimlessly just waiting for food to land into your mouth.


                  In conclusion, the best option then would be a combination of both proposals, that is aerial whales that mainly navigate the wind currents by letting themselves drift along the currents, with the ability to (slightly) steer using jet propulsion. That way no enormous amounts of jet pressure would be needed, thus staying in the realm of plausibility.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  For obvious reasons, wings are by far the best propulsion system as far as animals go.



                  Since that seems to not be possible due to that whale's anatomy however, and since we've already excluded flippers, I can think of two possible means of locomotion :



                  • Jet propulsion : Such as the one squids use underwater by quickly ejecting water out of a valve, allowing them to reach great speeds. However due to the low density of air, jet propulsion would likely be very weak in terms of acceleration unless unrealistic amounts of pressure are applied. If you are thinking of a slower type of animal though that would be an idea.


                  • No locomotion at all ! Some animals simply travel by drifting, such as jellyfish. Of course in the air that is not really an option, since food would probably be scarce thus depriving you of the luxury to drift aimlessly just waiting for food to land into your mouth.


                  In conclusion, the best option then would be a combination of both proposals, that is aerial whales that mainly navigate the wind currents by letting themselves drift along the currents, with the ability to (slightly) steer using jet propulsion. That way no enormous amounts of jet pressure would be needed, thus staying in the realm of plausibility.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 3 hours ago









                  KaloyanKaloyan

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