Can this water damage be explained by lack of gutters and grading issues? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Can I stop the water in my basement?How can I prevent water from being fed to my foundation through the gas-line ditch?Prevent water seepage through concrete block foundationInstalling a sump pump to reduce relative air humidityWater infiltration between basement “bulkhead door” enclosure and concrete foundation?Water on block foundation wallWet basement: is the gas pipe the culprit?Quikwall parge showing blotchesAsphalt grading/drainage around house perimeterDo we need steel beams when installing an Egress Window

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Can this water damage be explained by lack of gutters and grading issues?



Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?Can I stop the water in my basement?How can I prevent water from being fed to my foundation through the gas-line ditch?Prevent water seepage through concrete block foundationInstalling a sump pump to reduce relative air humidityWater infiltration between basement “bulkhead door” enclosure and concrete foundation?Water on block foundation wallWet basement: is the gas pipe the culprit?Quikwall parge showing blotchesAsphalt grading/drainage around house perimeterDo we need steel beams when installing an Egress Window



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1















We are currently midway through a major renovation to an old house. Part of the renovation was digging out a new basement and adding a new foundation around it. The basement has a ceiling height of about 8 feet, with about 5 feet below grade and 3 feet above grade. The basement and foundation work was completed a few months ago.



We are seeing some very damp areas on the new foundation walls after heavy rain. Here are some example photos. You can see the water dampness by the discoloration of the wall in the photos. It's mostly in the corners and where the wall meets the floor:



enter image description here



enter image description here



This house is still under construction. There are no gutters at all yet, and the grading hasn't been addressed at all yet. In other words, when it rains, the water literally just pools up along the side of the house and sits there.



My contractor is telling me that this is why we are seeing these water issues right now, and that after the gutters are installed and the grading is addressed it will not be a problem.



I think this makes sense, but I am also wondering if that's just a convenient explanation. In other words, even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly? Or does the contractor explanation seem reasonable?



Here's an additional photo showing the damp-proofing that was applied to the new foundation before the dirt was filled in:



enter image description here



The corner closest to you in the outdoor photo is the same as the corner furthest from you in the "office" photo.



Thanks very much for the help!










share|improve this question
























  • Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

    – Dano0430
    5 hours ago











  • Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

    – flyingL123
    5 hours ago











  • Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

    – Fred Shope
    3 hours ago

















1















We are currently midway through a major renovation to an old house. Part of the renovation was digging out a new basement and adding a new foundation around it. The basement has a ceiling height of about 8 feet, with about 5 feet below grade and 3 feet above grade. The basement and foundation work was completed a few months ago.



We are seeing some very damp areas on the new foundation walls after heavy rain. Here are some example photos. You can see the water dampness by the discoloration of the wall in the photos. It's mostly in the corners and where the wall meets the floor:



enter image description here



enter image description here



This house is still under construction. There are no gutters at all yet, and the grading hasn't been addressed at all yet. In other words, when it rains, the water literally just pools up along the side of the house and sits there.



My contractor is telling me that this is why we are seeing these water issues right now, and that after the gutters are installed and the grading is addressed it will not be a problem.



I think this makes sense, but I am also wondering if that's just a convenient explanation. In other words, even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly? Or does the contractor explanation seem reasonable?



Here's an additional photo showing the damp-proofing that was applied to the new foundation before the dirt was filled in:



enter image description here



The corner closest to you in the outdoor photo is the same as the corner furthest from you in the "office" photo.



Thanks very much for the help!










share|improve this question
























  • Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

    – Dano0430
    5 hours ago











  • Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

    – flyingL123
    5 hours ago











  • Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

    – Fred Shope
    3 hours ago













1












1








1








We are currently midway through a major renovation to an old house. Part of the renovation was digging out a new basement and adding a new foundation around it. The basement has a ceiling height of about 8 feet, with about 5 feet below grade and 3 feet above grade. The basement and foundation work was completed a few months ago.



We are seeing some very damp areas on the new foundation walls after heavy rain. Here are some example photos. You can see the water dampness by the discoloration of the wall in the photos. It's mostly in the corners and where the wall meets the floor:



enter image description here



enter image description here



This house is still under construction. There are no gutters at all yet, and the grading hasn't been addressed at all yet. In other words, when it rains, the water literally just pools up along the side of the house and sits there.



My contractor is telling me that this is why we are seeing these water issues right now, and that after the gutters are installed and the grading is addressed it will not be a problem.



I think this makes sense, but I am also wondering if that's just a convenient explanation. In other words, even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly? Or does the contractor explanation seem reasonable?



Here's an additional photo showing the damp-proofing that was applied to the new foundation before the dirt was filled in:



enter image description here



The corner closest to you in the outdoor photo is the same as the corner furthest from you in the "office" photo.



Thanks very much for the help!










share|improve this question
















We are currently midway through a major renovation to an old house. Part of the renovation was digging out a new basement and adding a new foundation around it. The basement has a ceiling height of about 8 feet, with about 5 feet below grade and 3 feet above grade. The basement and foundation work was completed a few months ago.



We are seeing some very damp areas on the new foundation walls after heavy rain. Here are some example photos. You can see the water dampness by the discoloration of the wall in the photos. It's mostly in the corners and where the wall meets the floor:



enter image description here



enter image description here



This house is still under construction. There are no gutters at all yet, and the grading hasn't been addressed at all yet. In other words, when it rains, the water literally just pools up along the side of the house and sits there.



My contractor is telling me that this is why we are seeing these water issues right now, and that after the gutters are installed and the grading is addressed it will not be a problem.



I think this makes sense, but I am also wondering if that's just a convenient explanation. In other words, even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly? Or does the contractor explanation seem reasonable?



Here's an additional photo showing the damp-proofing that was applied to the new foundation before the dirt was filled in:



enter image description here



The corner closest to you in the outdoor photo is the same as the corner furthest from you in the "office" photo.



Thanks very much for the help!







water basement foundation drainage






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago







flyingL123

















asked 5 hours ago









flyingL123flyingL123

115116




115116












  • Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

    – Dano0430
    5 hours ago











  • Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

    – flyingL123
    5 hours ago











  • Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

    – Fred Shope
    3 hours ago

















  • Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

    – Dano0430
    5 hours ago











  • Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

    – flyingL123
    5 hours ago











  • Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

    – Fred Shope
    3 hours ago
















Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

– Dano0430
5 hours ago





Do you have a sump pump? Also, pictures of these outside corners may help answer your question.

– Dano0430
5 hours ago













Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

– flyingL123
5 hours ago





Yes @Dano0430 a sump pump was installed as part of the renovation. Why do you ask? I will try to find some photos of the outside corners.

– flyingL123
5 hours ago













Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

– Fred Shope
3 hours ago





Sump systems are a way to prevent water pressure against the foundation from destabilizing the foundation and bleeding through the walls. A properly installed sump will have drain tiles around the foundation that let the water seep through and enter the sump hole, where it collects until it triggers the sump to pump it outside.

– Fred Shope
3 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4














You've really got a two-step question here




  1. Would a lack of gutters and grading explain the water?



    The simple answer is yes. That's the source here.



  2. Even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly?

It's that second question that will get you. Your basement walls comprise an access point for water. They're almost always concrete, which is porous and will let water wick inside. To help prevent this, you have an ecosystem to help channel water away from the basement walls. That ecosystem comprises



  1. Gutters - Collects the water from the roof and helps to channel it away from the foundation

  2. Sloping - Naturally moves water away from the foundation via gravity

  3. Weeping tiles - Typically a "sock" covered drain pipe with holes, this collects water seeping down by the base of the foundation and helps to channel it away (think underground gutters)

  4. Waterproofing membrane - The foundation should have some sort of waterproofing to help the water reach the weeping tiles and get channeled away

  5. Sump pump (optional) - Sometimes the water comes up from under the foundation. If this is the case, pipes in the basement floor will channel the water to a catch basin, where a sump pump lifts the water up and out, typically combining it with gutter discharge (older setups did this into the sewer, but this could permit flooding into your home in the case of torrential rain)

You probably have #3 already (few places don't require some sort of weeper at the basement wall), but I would have someone investigate (or do it yourself and dig a hole, carefully since older weeping tiles were literally ceramic tiles). It's #4 where I see a giant red flag. You want some form of waterproof membrane to keep the water from seeping in because gutters can clog and ground can settle and/or erode so you no longer have a proper slope.



If I were you, I'd consult with an expert on the water table and drainage. You need to know if that was all rain water, or if there's seepage from the water table. I would then demand the contractor excavate the basement walls and apply a proper waterproof membrane. It will be costly, but it will be more so once the walls are finished in the basement. Don't rely on slope and gutters to do it all.



It's also worth checking to make sure your sump pump isn't discharging into the sewer. It might also be a good idea (while the basement is torn up) to add a sewage backflow preventer.



Fix this now, or you'll find your basement damp, moldy and possibly water damaged.






share|improve this answer

























  • Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

    – flyingL123
    4 hours ago











  • Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

    – Machavity
    4 hours ago












  • Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

    – Fred Shope
    1 hour ago











Your Answer








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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4














You've really got a two-step question here




  1. Would a lack of gutters and grading explain the water?



    The simple answer is yes. That's the source here.



  2. Even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly?

It's that second question that will get you. Your basement walls comprise an access point for water. They're almost always concrete, which is porous and will let water wick inside. To help prevent this, you have an ecosystem to help channel water away from the basement walls. That ecosystem comprises



  1. Gutters - Collects the water from the roof and helps to channel it away from the foundation

  2. Sloping - Naturally moves water away from the foundation via gravity

  3. Weeping tiles - Typically a "sock" covered drain pipe with holes, this collects water seeping down by the base of the foundation and helps to channel it away (think underground gutters)

  4. Waterproofing membrane - The foundation should have some sort of waterproofing to help the water reach the weeping tiles and get channeled away

  5. Sump pump (optional) - Sometimes the water comes up from under the foundation. If this is the case, pipes in the basement floor will channel the water to a catch basin, where a sump pump lifts the water up and out, typically combining it with gutter discharge (older setups did this into the sewer, but this could permit flooding into your home in the case of torrential rain)

You probably have #3 already (few places don't require some sort of weeper at the basement wall), but I would have someone investigate (or do it yourself and dig a hole, carefully since older weeping tiles were literally ceramic tiles). It's #4 where I see a giant red flag. You want some form of waterproof membrane to keep the water from seeping in because gutters can clog and ground can settle and/or erode so you no longer have a proper slope.



If I were you, I'd consult with an expert on the water table and drainage. You need to know if that was all rain water, or if there's seepage from the water table. I would then demand the contractor excavate the basement walls and apply a proper waterproof membrane. It will be costly, but it will be more so once the walls are finished in the basement. Don't rely on slope and gutters to do it all.



It's also worth checking to make sure your sump pump isn't discharging into the sewer. It might also be a good idea (while the basement is torn up) to add a sewage backflow preventer.



Fix this now, or you'll find your basement damp, moldy and possibly water damaged.






share|improve this answer

























  • Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

    – flyingL123
    4 hours ago











  • Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

    – Machavity
    4 hours ago












  • Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

    – Fred Shope
    1 hour ago















4














You've really got a two-step question here




  1. Would a lack of gutters and grading explain the water?



    The simple answer is yes. That's the source here.



  2. Even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly?

It's that second question that will get you. Your basement walls comprise an access point for water. They're almost always concrete, which is porous and will let water wick inside. To help prevent this, you have an ecosystem to help channel water away from the basement walls. That ecosystem comprises



  1. Gutters - Collects the water from the roof and helps to channel it away from the foundation

  2. Sloping - Naturally moves water away from the foundation via gravity

  3. Weeping tiles - Typically a "sock" covered drain pipe with holes, this collects water seeping down by the base of the foundation and helps to channel it away (think underground gutters)

  4. Waterproofing membrane - The foundation should have some sort of waterproofing to help the water reach the weeping tiles and get channeled away

  5. Sump pump (optional) - Sometimes the water comes up from under the foundation. If this is the case, pipes in the basement floor will channel the water to a catch basin, where a sump pump lifts the water up and out, typically combining it with gutter discharge (older setups did this into the sewer, but this could permit flooding into your home in the case of torrential rain)

You probably have #3 already (few places don't require some sort of weeper at the basement wall), but I would have someone investigate (or do it yourself and dig a hole, carefully since older weeping tiles were literally ceramic tiles). It's #4 where I see a giant red flag. You want some form of waterproof membrane to keep the water from seeping in because gutters can clog and ground can settle and/or erode so you no longer have a proper slope.



If I were you, I'd consult with an expert on the water table and drainage. You need to know if that was all rain water, or if there's seepage from the water table. I would then demand the contractor excavate the basement walls and apply a proper waterproof membrane. It will be costly, but it will be more so once the walls are finished in the basement. Don't rely on slope and gutters to do it all.



It's also worth checking to make sure your sump pump isn't discharging into the sewer. It might also be a good idea (while the basement is torn up) to add a sewage backflow preventer.



Fix this now, or you'll find your basement damp, moldy and possibly water damaged.






share|improve this answer

























  • Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

    – flyingL123
    4 hours ago











  • Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

    – Machavity
    4 hours ago












  • Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

    – Fred Shope
    1 hour ago













4












4








4







You've really got a two-step question here




  1. Would a lack of gutters and grading explain the water?



    The simple answer is yes. That's the source here.



  2. Even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly?

It's that second question that will get you. Your basement walls comprise an access point for water. They're almost always concrete, which is porous and will let water wick inside. To help prevent this, you have an ecosystem to help channel water away from the basement walls. That ecosystem comprises



  1. Gutters - Collects the water from the roof and helps to channel it away from the foundation

  2. Sloping - Naturally moves water away from the foundation via gravity

  3. Weeping tiles - Typically a "sock" covered drain pipe with holes, this collects water seeping down by the base of the foundation and helps to channel it away (think underground gutters)

  4. Waterproofing membrane - The foundation should have some sort of waterproofing to help the water reach the weeping tiles and get channeled away

  5. Sump pump (optional) - Sometimes the water comes up from under the foundation. If this is the case, pipes in the basement floor will channel the water to a catch basin, where a sump pump lifts the water up and out, typically combining it with gutter discharge (older setups did this into the sewer, but this could permit flooding into your home in the case of torrential rain)

You probably have #3 already (few places don't require some sort of weeper at the basement wall), but I would have someone investigate (or do it yourself and dig a hole, carefully since older weeping tiles were literally ceramic tiles). It's #4 where I see a giant red flag. You want some form of waterproof membrane to keep the water from seeping in because gutters can clog and ground can settle and/or erode so you no longer have a proper slope.



If I were you, I'd consult with an expert on the water table and drainage. You need to know if that was all rain water, or if there's seepage from the water table. I would then demand the contractor excavate the basement walls and apply a proper waterproof membrane. It will be costly, but it will be more so once the walls are finished in the basement. Don't rely on slope and gutters to do it all.



It's also worth checking to make sure your sump pump isn't discharging into the sewer. It might also be a good idea (while the basement is torn up) to add a sewage backflow preventer.



Fix this now, or you'll find your basement damp, moldy and possibly water damaged.






share|improve this answer















You've really got a two-step question here




  1. Would a lack of gutters and grading explain the water?



    The simple answer is yes. That's the source here.



  2. Even without gutters and proper grading, should the foundation walls still be water proof if they were constructed correctly?

It's that second question that will get you. Your basement walls comprise an access point for water. They're almost always concrete, which is porous and will let water wick inside. To help prevent this, you have an ecosystem to help channel water away from the basement walls. That ecosystem comprises



  1. Gutters - Collects the water from the roof and helps to channel it away from the foundation

  2. Sloping - Naturally moves water away from the foundation via gravity

  3. Weeping tiles - Typically a "sock" covered drain pipe with holes, this collects water seeping down by the base of the foundation and helps to channel it away (think underground gutters)

  4. Waterproofing membrane - The foundation should have some sort of waterproofing to help the water reach the weeping tiles and get channeled away

  5. Sump pump (optional) - Sometimes the water comes up from under the foundation. If this is the case, pipes in the basement floor will channel the water to a catch basin, where a sump pump lifts the water up and out, typically combining it with gutter discharge (older setups did this into the sewer, but this could permit flooding into your home in the case of torrential rain)

You probably have #3 already (few places don't require some sort of weeper at the basement wall), but I would have someone investigate (or do it yourself and dig a hole, carefully since older weeping tiles were literally ceramic tiles). It's #4 where I see a giant red flag. You want some form of waterproof membrane to keep the water from seeping in because gutters can clog and ground can settle and/or erode so you no longer have a proper slope.



If I were you, I'd consult with an expert on the water table and drainage. You need to know if that was all rain water, or if there's seepage from the water table. I would then demand the contractor excavate the basement walls and apply a proper waterproof membrane. It will be costly, but it will be more so once the walls are finished in the basement. Don't rely on slope and gutters to do it all.



It's also worth checking to make sure your sump pump isn't discharging into the sewer. It might also be a good idea (while the basement is torn up) to add a sewage backflow preventer.



Fix this now, or you'll find your basement damp, moldy and possibly water damaged.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 4 hours ago

























answered 4 hours ago









MachavityMachavity

8,57321942




8,57321942












  • Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

    – flyingL123
    4 hours ago











  • Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

    – Machavity
    4 hours ago












  • Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

    – Fred Shope
    1 hour ago

















  • Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

    – flyingL123
    4 hours ago











  • Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

    – Machavity
    4 hours ago












  • Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

    – Fred Shope
    1 hour ago
















Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

– flyingL123
4 hours ago





Thanks so much for the awesome response. I added a photo that I took during construction of the new foundation. I believe that black stuff is some sort of tar/damp-proofing material. I'm guessing that's not the best decision compared to an actual waterproofing membrane, but still better than nothing? I can't find any pictures of a weeping tiles, but they may have been installed on a day I wasn't there, or just not done at all. I'm not sure on that one.

– flyingL123
4 hours ago













Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

– Machavity
4 hours ago






Weeping tiles would be at the bottom of the basement wall on the outside. That tar looking stuff might be a waterproof membrane but it's hard to tell. I would ask the contractor. Either way, it doesn't appear to be enough to stop water intrusion

– Machavity
4 hours ago














Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

– Fred Shope
1 hour ago





Very thorough answer, +1 from me.

– Fred Shope
1 hour ago

















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