DC-DC converter from low voltage at high current, to high voltage at low currenthigh voltage Buck-Boost converterCheap high-voltage low-current sourceStep-up converter generating too much voltagecurrent density value for inductor used in boost converterHigh voltage boost converter safetyBuck boost converter - High current 15A@12VDC +why Boost converter output voltage decreases at high power?Boost Converter: Low voltage high current VS. High Voltage, low current?Boost converter - high currentIncrease Boost Converter Current

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DC-DC converter from low voltage at high current, to high voltage at low current


high voltage Buck-Boost converterCheap high-voltage low-current sourceStep-up converter generating too much voltagecurrent density value for inductor used in boost converterHigh voltage boost converter safetyBuck boost converter - High current 15A@12VDC +why Boost converter output voltage decreases at high power?Boost Converter: Low voltage high current VS. High Voltage, low current?Boost converter - high currentIncrease Boost Converter Current






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








5












$begingroup$


I want to build a DC to DC converter with:



25 V input side

400 V output side

4000 watts of continuous rating



That means (obviously) 160 amps on the input side and 10 amps on the output. I can’t find anything remotely close, that has such a high voltage gap with such a high wattage rating.



  1. Is this feasible? I can’t see why not.

  2. What would be the best way to go about this, or a reference design somewhere that I can scale up? I don’t mind spending the money on quality products, but I prefer to DIY it so I can make changes etc.

I have an adequate voltage source for the input side that can handle the current so that’s not the issue, but I’m failing to find more info and even big companies like Vicor, Lambda, etc. all have 400-600 max rated units. Therefore I have to build it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The cost is okay.
    $endgroup$
    – jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
    11 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago

















5












$begingroup$


I want to build a DC to DC converter with:



25 V input side

400 V output side

4000 watts of continuous rating



That means (obviously) 160 amps on the input side and 10 amps on the output. I can’t find anything remotely close, that has such a high voltage gap with such a high wattage rating.



  1. Is this feasible? I can’t see why not.

  2. What would be the best way to go about this, or a reference design somewhere that I can scale up? I don’t mind spending the money on quality products, but I prefer to DIY it so I can make changes etc.

I have an adequate voltage source for the input side that can handle the current so that’s not the issue, but I’m failing to find more info and even big companies like Vicor, Lambda, etc. all have 400-600 max rated units. Therefore I have to build it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The cost is okay.
    $endgroup$
    – jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
    11 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago













5












5








5


1



$begingroup$


I want to build a DC to DC converter with:



25 V input side

400 V output side

4000 watts of continuous rating



That means (obviously) 160 amps on the input side and 10 amps on the output. I can’t find anything remotely close, that has such a high voltage gap with such a high wattage rating.



  1. Is this feasible? I can’t see why not.

  2. What would be the best way to go about this, or a reference design somewhere that I can scale up? I don’t mind spending the money on quality products, but I prefer to DIY it so I can make changes etc.

I have an adequate voltage source for the input side that can handle the current so that’s not the issue, but I’m failing to find more info and even big companies like Vicor, Lambda, etc. all have 400-600 max rated units. Therefore I have to build it.










share|improve this question









New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I want to build a DC to DC converter with:



25 V input side

400 V output side

4000 watts of continuous rating



That means (obviously) 160 amps on the input side and 10 amps on the output. I can’t find anything remotely close, that has such a high voltage gap with such a high wattage rating.



  1. Is this feasible? I can’t see why not.

  2. What would be the best way to go about this, or a reference design somewhere that I can scale up? I don’t mind spending the money on quality products, but I prefer to DIY it so I can make changes etc.

I have an adequate voltage source for the input side that can handle the current so that’s not the issue, but I’m failing to find more info and even big companies like Vicor, Lambda, etc. all have 400-600 max rated units. Therefore I have to build it.







dc-dc-converter boost






share|improve this question









New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago









SamGibson

11.7k41739




11.7k41739






New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 11 hours ago









jasonthegreat1955gmailcomjasonthegreat1955gmailcom

291




291




New contributor




jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






jasonthegreat1955gmailcom is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The cost is okay.
    $endgroup$
    – jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
    11 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago












  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The cost is okay.
    $endgroup$
    – jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
    11 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    10 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    8 hours ago







4




4




$begingroup$
Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
Be aware that this project is likely going to cost you thousands of dollars. 4kW is not a trivial amount of power.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
11 hours ago












$begingroup$
The cost is okay.
$endgroup$
– jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
The cost is okay.
$endgroup$
– jasonthegreat1955gmailcom
11 hours ago




3




3




$begingroup$
@ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
10 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ChrisFernandez Cockroft-Walton generators are not very efficient, especially ones with this many stages. I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs substantial power.
$endgroup$
– Hearth
10 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
If you have to ask what is "the best way to go about this", the right answer is that you should find a company which can do this for you rather that doing it yourself.
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
8 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
@ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ChrisFernandez "You could try a Cockcroft-Walton chain" - finally, someone with a sense of humor showed up!
$endgroup$
– Dmitry Grigoryev
8 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















11












$begingroup$

160A at 25V will not give you 4kW out. If it is very well designed, you'll get around 3.2kW. The rest is wasted as heat. As you're just setting out to do this, and you're trying to design it yourself, you need to model it well and simulate to work out where your losses are going to be, and how you're going to cool it.



This is a perfectly do-able boost converter project. I have done a 5kW output DC-DC (admittedly that was 48V), and that required a full automotive style liquid cooling system. That was using a standard DC-boost converter, 48V came in, and we got up to 200V out.



First things are cooling and component ratings, those are the hard bit to do. 25V is low for 4kW, so you'll quickly see (once running the numbers) why it is that higher voltages are chosen for these kinds of power.



At 25V in, 4kW out, 80% efficient means around 200 Amps in, plus a 50% overhead safety factor for your FETs, so you need to find FETs rated to 300A, 800V (high voltage due to high output voltage requirement). Don't forget to de-rate for temperature, and check your simulations for junction temperature rise.



You'll also need an inductor, rated at similarly. But these are probably easier to find.



You could split the power down, using multiple channels in parallel, each channel doing a part of the current (I used 3 channels on my 5kW system). But still, cooling will be your biggest challenge.



In summary:



  • It will get hot

  • You need to simulate it

  • Don't underestimate how hot it will get

  • You can just scale up a standard DC boost converter

  • Watch your cooling

  • Simulation is vital





share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    10 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
    $endgroup$
    – Neil_UK
    10 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
    $endgroup$
    – Hearth
    9 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
    $endgroup$
    – Neil_UK
    9 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
    $endgroup$
    – Unknown123
    8 hours ago


















3












$begingroup$

The inductive coupling must be modeled. As well as eddy currents.



200 amps switched in 200 nanoseconds (for high efficiency, fast switching must occur) and wired to be 1cm away from a 1cm-by-4cm servo-regulator loop, will induce this error voltage:



Vinduce = 2e-7 * Area/Distance * dI/dT



Vinduce = 2e-7 * 1cm*4cm / 1cm * 1Billion amps/second



Vinduce = 2e-7 * 0.04 * 1.0e+9



Vinduce = 2e-7 * 4e-2* 1.0e+9 = 8 volts.



To be completely accurate, you need to write the integrals and extract the equation that uses NATURAL_LOG. And you need to model the eddy currents.



At these levels of dI/dT, ground planes will NOT be ground planes. There will be large differences in voltages across the plane, because of eddy currents.



The math suggests shields and planes (VDD or GROUND) will have EIGHT volts of gradients.



I was brought in to diagnose the failures on a 15,000 horsepower speed controller. A loop of wire, to sense the magnetic field , held near the ground-plane, indicated 2 volts per square-inch. Ground Was Not Ground.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    A programmable voltage three phase inverter with a full bridge (or two that are wired with a 30degree phase off-set) (to gain minimum ripple) with some inductance and capacitance to follow that are designed for 24V input might just be able to be found semi custom.



    Some crazy variable speed drive system with a 24V supply and programmable voltage might even work out of the box.



    Starting to design one from scratch for a once-off will cost much more than you think, hoping to save money this way is futile. I would spend a week making calls to every VFD and inverter manufacturer with your loosest tolerable specifications and see if anyone can configure OTS parts.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      11












      $begingroup$

      160A at 25V will not give you 4kW out. If it is very well designed, you'll get around 3.2kW. The rest is wasted as heat. As you're just setting out to do this, and you're trying to design it yourself, you need to model it well and simulate to work out where your losses are going to be, and how you're going to cool it.



      This is a perfectly do-able boost converter project. I have done a 5kW output DC-DC (admittedly that was 48V), and that required a full automotive style liquid cooling system. That was using a standard DC-boost converter, 48V came in, and we got up to 200V out.



      First things are cooling and component ratings, those are the hard bit to do. 25V is low for 4kW, so you'll quickly see (once running the numbers) why it is that higher voltages are chosen for these kinds of power.



      At 25V in, 4kW out, 80% efficient means around 200 Amps in, plus a 50% overhead safety factor for your FETs, so you need to find FETs rated to 300A, 800V (high voltage due to high output voltage requirement). Don't forget to de-rate for temperature, and check your simulations for junction temperature rise.



      You'll also need an inductor, rated at similarly. But these are probably easier to find.



      You could split the power down, using multiple channels in parallel, each channel doing a part of the current (I used 3 channels on my 5kW system). But still, cooling will be your biggest challenge.



      In summary:



      • It will get hot

      • You need to simulate it

      • Don't underestimate how hot it will get

      • You can just scale up a standard DC boost converter

      • Watch your cooling

      • Simulation is vital





      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        10 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        10 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
        $endgroup$
        – Unknown123
        8 hours ago















      11












      $begingroup$

      160A at 25V will not give you 4kW out. If it is very well designed, you'll get around 3.2kW. The rest is wasted as heat. As you're just setting out to do this, and you're trying to design it yourself, you need to model it well and simulate to work out where your losses are going to be, and how you're going to cool it.



      This is a perfectly do-able boost converter project. I have done a 5kW output DC-DC (admittedly that was 48V), and that required a full automotive style liquid cooling system. That was using a standard DC-boost converter, 48V came in, and we got up to 200V out.



      First things are cooling and component ratings, those are the hard bit to do. 25V is low for 4kW, so you'll quickly see (once running the numbers) why it is that higher voltages are chosen for these kinds of power.



      At 25V in, 4kW out, 80% efficient means around 200 Amps in, plus a 50% overhead safety factor for your FETs, so you need to find FETs rated to 300A, 800V (high voltage due to high output voltage requirement). Don't forget to de-rate for temperature, and check your simulations for junction temperature rise.



      You'll also need an inductor, rated at similarly. But these are probably easier to find.



      You could split the power down, using multiple channels in parallel, each channel doing a part of the current (I used 3 channels on my 5kW system). But still, cooling will be your biggest challenge.



      In summary:



      • It will get hot

      • You need to simulate it

      • Don't underestimate how hot it will get

      • You can just scale up a standard DC boost converter

      • Watch your cooling

      • Simulation is vital





      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        10 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        10 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
        $endgroup$
        – Unknown123
        8 hours ago













      11












      11








      11





      $begingroup$

      160A at 25V will not give you 4kW out. If it is very well designed, you'll get around 3.2kW. The rest is wasted as heat. As you're just setting out to do this, and you're trying to design it yourself, you need to model it well and simulate to work out where your losses are going to be, and how you're going to cool it.



      This is a perfectly do-able boost converter project. I have done a 5kW output DC-DC (admittedly that was 48V), and that required a full automotive style liquid cooling system. That was using a standard DC-boost converter, 48V came in, and we got up to 200V out.



      First things are cooling and component ratings, those are the hard bit to do. 25V is low for 4kW, so you'll quickly see (once running the numbers) why it is that higher voltages are chosen for these kinds of power.



      At 25V in, 4kW out, 80% efficient means around 200 Amps in, plus a 50% overhead safety factor for your FETs, so you need to find FETs rated to 300A, 800V (high voltage due to high output voltage requirement). Don't forget to de-rate for temperature, and check your simulations for junction temperature rise.



      You'll also need an inductor, rated at similarly. But these are probably easier to find.



      You could split the power down, using multiple channels in parallel, each channel doing a part of the current (I used 3 channels on my 5kW system). But still, cooling will be your biggest challenge.



      In summary:



      • It will get hot

      • You need to simulate it

      • Don't underestimate how hot it will get

      • You can just scale up a standard DC boost converter

      • Watch your cooling

      • Simulation is vital





      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      160A at 25V will not give you 4kW out. If it is very well designed, you'll get around 3.2kW. The rest is wasted as heat. As you're just setting out to do this, and you're trying to design it yourself, you need to model it well and simulate to work out where your losses are going to be, and how you're going to cool it.



      This is a perfectly do-able boost converter project. I have done a 5kW output DC-DC (admittedly that was 48V), and that required a full automotive style liquid cooling system. That was using a standard DC-boost converter, 48V came in, and we got up to 200V out.



      First things are cooling and component ratings, those are the hard bit to do. 25V is low for 4kW, so you'll quickly see (once running the numbers) why it is that higher voltages are chosen for these kinds of power.



      At 25V in, 4kW out, 80% efficient means around 200 Amps in, plus a 50% overhead safety factor for your FETs, so you need to find FETs rated to 300A, 800V (high voltage due to high output voltage requirement). Don't forget to de-rate for temperature, and check your simulations for junction temperature rise.



      You'll also need an inductor, rated at similarly. But these are probably easier to find.



      You could split the power down, using multiple channels in parallel, each channel doing a part of the current (I used 3 channels on my 5kW system). But still, cooling will be your biggest challenge.



      In summary:



      • It will get hot

      • You need to simulate it

      • Don't underestimate how hot it will get

      • You can just scale up a standard DC boost converter

      • Watch your cooling

      • Simulation is vital






      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 11 hours ago









      PuffafishPuffafish

      1,145113




      1,145113











      • $begingroup$
        FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        10 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        10 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
        $endgroup$
        – Unknown123
        8 hours ago
















      • $begingroup$
        FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        10 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        10 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
        $endgroup$
        – Hearth
        9 hours ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
        $endgroup$
        – Neil_UK
        9 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
        $endgroup$
        – Unknown123
        8 hours ago















      $begingroup$
      FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
      $endgroup$
      – Hearth
      10 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      FETs would be preferred, but IGBTs might be a cheaper option. High-power modules like this tend to be IGBTs and only recently are FETs on this sort of power level starting to show up. A brief search on digikey shows that a FET module that meets these needs can be expected to be on the order of $800, while a similarly rated IGBT module is more like $130.
      $endgroup$
      – Hearth
      10 hours ago




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
      $endgroup$
      – Neil_UK
      10 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      IGBTs are rarely a good choice for low voltage converters, due to their finite VCEsat. FETs will save on cooling, and efficiency. Man small FETs is the way to go, there are literally zillions of new FETs optimised for low voltage high power duty for cars, inverters and the like.
      $endgroup$
      – Neil_UK
      10 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
      $endgroup$
      – Hearth
      9 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      @Neil_UK Are you sure you mean low voltage and not low current? It'd be at high currents where the saturation voltage shines, with its i*log(i) power dissipation compared to i² for FETs. Either way, this is (in this particular context) both a low-voltage and low-current application, so FETs win either way. I suggested IGBTs because I'm familiar with using a single module for switching, and not familiar at all with the complexities of paralleling FETs that aren't matched and thermally bonded.
      $endgroup$
      – Hearth
      9 hours ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
      $endgroup$
      – Neil_UK
      9 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      @Hearth No, it's at high line voltage where VCEsat is less of a problem, IGBTs really get into gear at 400v+. FETs, especially in the last few years, especially in the sub-50v realm, have really pushed RDSon and Qgate down. With a suitable FET for the current, you can get VDS very small, <100/200mV, not the 15% efficiency sapping 1.5v of an IGBT VCEsat with only 12v input. FETs are tame to parallel at the device level for switching, and polyphase converters are the way to reduce input current variations so reduce the requirement for humungeous input caps.
      $endgroup$
      – Neil_UK
      9 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
      $endgroup$
      – Unknown123
      8 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      I think you could improve the answer better by explaining why would standard non-synchronous dc converter would work here. Why not the synchronous one? How about full bridge, Resonant LLC, etc?
      $endgroup$
      – Unknown123
      8 hours ago













      3












      $begingroup$

      The inductive coupling must be modeled. As well as eddy currents.



      200 amps switched in 200 nanoseconds (for high efficiency, fast switching must occur) and wired to be 1cm away from a 1cm-by-4cm servo-regulator loop, will induce this error voltage:



      Vinduce = 2e-7 * Area/Distance * dI/dT



      Vinduce = 2e-7 * 1cm*4cm / 1cm * 1Billion amps/second



      Vinduce = 2e-7 * 0.04 * 1.0e+9



      Vinduce = 2e-7 * 4e-2* 1.0e+9 = 8 volts.



      To be completely accurate, you need to write the integrals and extract the equation that uses NATURAL_LOG. And you need to model the eddy currents.



      At these levels of dI/dT, ground planes will NOT be ground planes. There will be large differences in voltages across the plane, because of eddy currents.



      The math suggests shields and planes (VDD or GROUND) will have EIGHT volts of gradients.



      I was brought in to diagnose the failures on a 15,000 horsepower speed controller. A loop of wire, to sense the magnetic field , held near the ground-plane, indicated 2 volts per square-inch. Ground Was Not Ground.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        The inductive coupling must be modeled. As well as eddy currents.



        200 amps switched in 200 nanoseconds (for high efficiency, fast switching must occur) and wired to be 1cm away from a 1cm-by-4cm servo-regulator loop, will induce this error voltage:



        Vinduce = 2e-7 * Area/Distance * dI/dT



        Vinduce = 2e-7 * 1cm*4cm / 1cm * 1Billion amps/second



        Vinduce = 2e-7 * 0.04 * 1.0e+9



        Vinduce = 2e-7 * 4e-2* 1.0e+9 = 8 volts.



        To be completely accurate, you need to write the integrals and extract the equation that uses NATURAL_LOG. And you need to model the eddy currents.



        At these levels of dI/dT, ground planes will NOT be ground planes. There will be large differences in voltages across the plane, because of eddy currents.



        The math suggests shields and planes (VDD or GROUND) will have EIGHT volts of gradients.



        I was brought in to diagnose the failures on a 15,000 horsepower speed controller. A loop of wire, to sense the magnetic field , held near the ground-plane, indicated 2 volts per square-inch. Ground Was Not Ground.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          The inductive coupling must be modeled. As well as eddy currents.



          200 amps switched in 200 nanoseconds (for high efficiency, fast switching must occur) and wired to be 1cm away from a 1cm-by-4cm servo-regulator loop, will induce this error voltage:



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * Area/Distance * dI/dT



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 1cm*4cm / 1cm * 1Billion amps/second



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 0.04 * 1.0e+9



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 4e-2* 1.0e+9 = 8 volts.



          To be completely accurate, you need to write the integrals and extract the equation that uses NATURAL_LOG. And you need to model the eddy currents.



          At these levels of dI/dT, ground planes will NOT be ground planes. There will be large differences in voltages across the plane, because of eddy currents.



          The math suggests shields and planes (VDD or GROUND) will have EIGHT volts of gradients.



          I was brought in to diagnose the failures on a 15,000 horsepower speed controller. A loop of wire, to sense the magnetic field , held near the ground-plane, indicated 2 volts per square-inch. Ground Was Not Ground.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          The inductive coupling must be modeled. As well as eddy currents.



          200 amps switched in 200 nanoseconds (for high efficiency, fast switching must occur) and wired to be 1cm away from a 1cm-by-4cm servo-regulator loop, will induce this error voltage:



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * Area/Distance * dI/dT



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 1cm*4cm / 1cm * 1Billion amps/second



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 0.04 * 1.0e+9



          Vinduce = 2e-7 * 4e-2* 1.0e+9 = 8 volts.



          To be completely accurate, you need to write the integrals and extract the equation that uses NATURAL_LOG. And you need to model the eddy currents.



          At these levels of dI/dT, ground planes will NOT be ground planes. There will be large differences in voltages across the plane, because of eddy currents.



          The math suggests shields and planes (VDD or GROUND) will have EIGHT volts of gradients.



          I was brought in to diagnose the failures on a 15,000 horsepower speed controller. A loop of wire, to sense the magnetic field , held near the ground-plane, indicated 2 volts per square-inch. Ground Was Not Ground.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 9 hours ago

























          answered 10 hours ago









          analogsystemsrfanalogsystemsrf

          16k2822




          16k2822





















              0












              $begingroup$

              A programmable voltage three phase inverter with a full bridge (or two that are wired with a 30degree phase off-set) (to gain minimum ripple) with some inductance and capacitance to follow that are designed for 24V input might just be able to be found semi custom.



              Some crazy variable speed drive system with a 24V supply and programmable voltage might even work out of the box.



              Starting to design one from scratch for a once-off will cost much more than you think, hoping to save money this way is futile. I would spend a week making calls to every VFD and inverter manufacturer with your loosest tolerable specifications and see if anyone can configure OTS parts.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                A programmable voltage three phase inverter with a full bridge (or two that are wired with a 30degree phase off-set) (to gain minimum ripple) with some inductance and capacitance to follow that are designed for 24V input might just be able to be found semi custom.



                Some crazy variable speed drive system with a 24V supply and programmable voltage might even work out of the box.



                Starting to design one from scratch for a once-off will cost much more than you think, hoping to save money this way is futile. I would spend a week making calls to every VFD and inverter manufacturer with your loosest tolerable specifications and see if anyone can configure OTS parts.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  A programmable voltage three phase inverter with a full bridge (or two that are wired with a 30degree phase off-set) (to gain minimum ripple) with some inductance and capacitance to follow that are designed for 24V input might just be able to be found semi custom.



                  Some crazy variable speed drive system with a 24V supply and programmable voltage might even work out of the box.



                  Starting to design one from scratch for a once-off will cost much more than you think, hoping to save money this way is futile. I would spend a week making calls to every VFD and inverter manufacturer with your loosest tolerable specifications and see if anyone can configure OTS parts.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  A programmable voltage three phase inverter with a full bridge (or two that are wired with a 30degree phase off-set) (to gain minimum ripple) with some inductance and capacitance to follow that are designed for 24V input might just be able to be found semi custom.



                  Some crazy variable speed drive system with a 24V supply and programmable voltage might even work out of the box.



                  Starting to design one from scratch for a once-off will cost much more than you think, hoping to save money this way is futile. I would spend a week making calls to every VFD and inverter manufacturer with your loosest tolerable specifications and see if anyone can configure OTS parts.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 3 hours ago









                  KalleMPKalleMP

                  3,6801930




                  3,6801930




















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